Springfield City Council — September 11, 2023

0:06 I'm going to call it the council work session to order with roll call Mayor Van Gordon here councilor Weber here councilor Mo counselor rodley here counselor Blackwell here councilor Doyle here and counselor Pictionary here thank you we have one item tonight which is the transportation sidewalk unnamed prioritization why not uh through Larson City of Springfield Transportation planner um I believe Christy Krueger is online and is available for questions following uh the quick staff discussion and presentation um I also have Mr Ben Gibson um from operations as well as I believe Stan petroff city engineer is also

0:52 online at least I hope so um and so tonight is a continuous continuing continuation there we go of the sidewalk conversation we had right before your summer break welcome back um so with that uh the Metropolitan planning organization has awarded the City of Springfield 3.9 million to address Springfield's walking and biking network uh the grant provides an enhanced safety Crossings throughout Springfield including Refugee islands along the e-web path at 5th and 19th streets and Rapid flashing beacons on 5th Street Mohawk Boulevard and Thurston Road those can be seen in attachment three the remainder of the grant approximately 2.5 million is attended

1:37 for sidewalk construction and Ada upgrades throughout Springfield so the awarded funding includes money from the carbon Reduction Program as well as the congestion and mitigation and air quality uh both of these pots of money are intended and limited in their use to reduce emissions and vehicle congestion by constructing new sidewalk connections as well as New multi-use Paths that feed into the regional pedestrian system these federal funds must be programmed and all projects constructed by September 30th 2025 the design must be completed early 2024 so that the bid process and construction can take take place before the 2025 deadline so at the previous work session before

2:22 the break Council directed staff to identify a list of projects in and around all Springfield schools and expressed the desire for adjacent property owner participation so really the only mechanism to include property owner participation with these Grant dollars is a local improvement district and council could elect to proceed with one of those it'll take about a year to adopt which could potentially delay design and ultimately delivery of this project which could put the federal dollars in jeopardy uh so because of the complex complexities of absorbing the Improvement District staff has recommended four projects tonight to provide connections around school and without adjacent property owner

3:08 participation three of the recommended projects provide new East-West connections around Hamlin Middle School they include an extension of the by golly path from Pioneer Parkway to 5th Street through existing city property and formalizing um from yeah Pioneer Parkway to 5th Street um as well as a connection in the Olympic Street right away from fifth to six as well as new pedestrian paths through Pleasant Street between 8th and 10th Street um so these two connections are these three connections would not only provide greater access to the Hamlin Middle School by either you know Sports participants um

3:53 student getting to Hamlin Middle School it would also connect two neighborhoods currently split by uh Pioneer Parkway um I did talk with the school district about these three projects they were excited about the Bible by going path extension and we're excited to work with the city on providing either a new connection to Hamlin Middle School from that Northwest side or something along there the school does like to control their accesses but they were excited about that as well as Express support for the new connections east of History again that Olympic Street and the Pleasant Street rights of way uh the fourth project uh that we've recommended is the Douglas Gardens Greenwich that's South 37 that's from Jasper to I believe it is Woodburn and Redwood Redwood Avenue along that Frontage

4:39 currently students are being dropped off in the grass and as we all know Oregon gets wet can get muddy um so students walking from the north as well as getting dropped off would now have a safe place to walk into the school foreign so the cost estimate for the four recommended projects shown in the uh briefing memo is approximately 2.5 million which equals what is available following the enhanced Crossing connections uh that have been predetermined uh lastly staff has prepared and included an alternative list of projects around schools in the council briefing menu memo or council's consideration these projects are identified as needed for access to schools but would include

5:24 property owner participation so council could elect to replace one of these projects with the recommended from the list thank you that's all I have this evening so um in regards to conversation about the projects you are speaking about on their Flash and Beacon specifically that Thurston wrote when my understanding it could be wrong about a conversation about 18 months or maybe 24 months ago in regards to a rapid slash rapid RFP at the intersection of 66 and Thurston because it's at the North End of Riverview Elementary where there's well as children going to cross at that clock so that intersection is

6:10 currently not detected and I'm trying to understand that the logic behind going to the 69th there's nothing When there's less people in that area compared to 66. um unfortunately I wasn't privy to that conversation that happened well before my time as uh in this role um and my understanding is that these were just the identified projects with our application with the Metropolitan planning organization I'm sure that doesn't help you at all with your questions and get me where I want to go yeah um I'm just putting that out there I don't support that location of 69th and I said I was supported at 66 only because of the increased child safety and that's we're talking about doing all

6:55 this stuff around schools and yet this is several blocks over from where School traffic with kids are at Sheriff Christy's online and has any uh yeah let me pull her up as a panelist for you so that she can talk if you're gonna have children traffic coming from Ridgeview Elementary but also through Thurston Middle School yes seems like a logical spot hi mayor and Council can you hear me go ahead Christy oh good so you can hear me

7:44 can you hear me she can't hear us we can hear you Christy oh good okay there it is um good evening Maryland Council um 66th Street is a location that we need to study because we have site distance issues over there and what we were thinking about in the past um was taking a look at a mini roundabout at that location where we could use the existing right-of-way and not have to acquire additional right-of-way so if that's something that um mayor and Council want us to look at we can go ahead and um put that on our on our list

8:29 but well it was I think Chrissy was our in our conversation about somewhere between 18 and 24 months ago that that was an intersection that had an interest in including the neighborhood yes there's definitely interest in improving the safety but an rrfb at that location is not the most ideal from The Limited analysis that we have done because of the site distance issues so there are other tools in the toolbox that could be potentially a safer remedy for that location so the money spent on the 69th Street facility could that be applied to getting some work done on 66 now before

9:14 those federal funds expire so we can get ahead of it or is it something that we're going to have to kick the can down the road again I think I think that we could look at it as a separate item basically paralleling this and taking a look at it outside of this particular project I think it's too late you know for the federal funds this is actually our first federally certified agency project that we'll be doing as a federally certified agency so we're really excited about that but we do have to get things rolling um the end of this month to start that Federal process

10:02 so it wouldn't help us if we took the money off of 69th Street and then used it to plan 66 or is that even possible I guess um I don't I don't think that's possible with this the the type of funding we have that doesn't mean we can't look at some of our other Transportation funds that we do have for this intersection we also do have some other funds budgeted for intersections and and matching funds that we could potentially move a study forward and then use that to look at the next round of transportation funding I know that's been a gap with looking at a roundabout here was really the cost of that and then acquire you know finding the funds to build around about their yeah quite true uh I mean we do have with the awarded Federal money and state

10:49 money for the Mill Street we had canceled the Q Street so we have access of uh I I think it was 3.7 so we're getting two million dollars from the Fed so we potentially have two million dollars in federal money that could be applied to another project and that is something I could certainly ask about but I know that Q Street is a high priority as well so it's kind of like which one do we really want to prioritize so at the risk of I I'm just I'm just hard I know this area really well and I'm that I have a hard time judicially seeing the benefit or the good benefit of having a beacon at that intersection

11:34 based on the amount of foot traffic that is non-existent in my mind I don't know if they have foot traffic count but I think that it may be other projects including sidewalk projects that can be used in lieu of spending the money at that intersection or maybe others that others may have something in their mind but I I mean I just it's I know the area really well and they're just so darned little foot traffic that and that's a lot of money to put those in or it may be a better spent elsewhere okay uh anybody else I understand I just have a question and I didn't think about until you mentioned this but if if the 66th Street project

12:20 was brought up 18 months or two years ago then why did we not have the study done okay do you have other questions Victoria okay okay so I appreciate I appreciate the the work around Hamlin I think that's great and so this is just me going off book a little bit um because I know that we don't have enough money to do this and yet when I look at this list here um the and it's like technically in War 4 but it's so close and I moved to this neighborhood a lot the the G Street and the 23rd Street projects particularly G Street which is I'm saying things out

13:06 loud because maybe not everybody knows it's such a it's a it's a narrow Street we go from like wide streets at 21st to then it's a very narrow street but it's a really through way for people to to both drive and walk and around Maple Elementary there's actually quite a bit of of like School foot traffic around there and so I'm just wanting to just highlight that and maybe in some way if we get 21st or 28 on the levy to just think about that area because it's pretty worn down over there um it's there's just a lot of people moving because you've got the the Walmart and all of that over there that people walk and ride to so I I mean I'm

13:52 not wanting to pull from these because I know that's going to be a much bigger project because of how many people live there and needing to really think about it but I could see that as part of that area of needing to invest in because it's it's needs it but you're fine leaving it on the unfunded list for right now because as long as it is a priority yeah okay yeah as long as like in the secondary round of priorities because I really do think that area needs some support Drew don't lose this list yet because we're going to come back to it but I have a question um Victoria and I drove around and went to visited all the sites that are proposed and one of the questions that I think we both kind of had is on the Pleasant Street pedestrian path since it's an Alleyway that's grappled and it accesses

14:38 I think two at least two houses is the plan to put just a sidewalk in there or what's what's the exact plan that that you have for that that was kind of confusing looking at it in person uh that's fair um it is kind of uh because it is a full width right away so it could be a street um why it is only acting as an alley right now with a gravel path I don't know uh I asked actually asked stand to prepare the cost estimates for us and I believe he was planning for a like a five foot wide asphalt path through there for the center of the street or I am I'm not exactly sure where he was planning to place it my guess is was through the

15:25 center okay and on the um there's another one here the Olympic Street pedestrian path with the trees need to be removed there that's pretty short little path there would be some tree removal uh so high on that very short yes and that one was planned as a concrete um connection Point yeah yeah thank you I do have Stan as well if you need him but you need Stan do you have anything to offer from the sky um no it was the question about one of the path connections and where it was lined up correct yes do you want to ask it again

16:11 Beth yeah the uh the Pleasant Street pedestrian path that's the gravel uh Alleyway that accesses a couple residential homes yeah I think we just centered I sent her to write down the write down the gravel path and where exactly what was the plan there I guess for the where the walking path would be um yeah I'd have to bring up the map again to look at it but I think it was just you know centered within whatever right away we had there right just putting the asphalt down basically but it's a public Street

16:59 yeah sorry I'm not familiar with it right now let me let me if you can come back to me I can bring it up and look at it you know one second we're tagging in Jeff here yeah I'm looking at it and most likely for costing estimates you're just looking at kind of the straightest pass path but if this is approved and we get to this on the list that'll be all through the design process because one things that one of the things that we'll have to take into consideration with it being open on the one end is how do we protect that as a pedestrian path without vehicles accessing it as we have issues with other multi-use paths so there will be a whole design process once we move into that phase right now the the estimates just the high level we're going to put five feet or I and I don't know what Stan assumed whether it's a five foot path eight foot path but we would just do that to get a materials quantity and an estimate for

17:44 what the construction cost would be and then you know when we do those estimates then we just throw in a percentage of that for engineering and construction time engineering so we're not closing this straight well the past not going through the middle of it yeah and we have to look because if if there's residents who take access off of that we have to look at where that path goes so that anybody using that path as a pedestrian is protected from you know residence accessing there and so that's why I said there will be a whole design process once this is approved to get that path located and where it would be the safest place for pedestrians to use it at least two homes on the north Seattle yeah

18:32 yeah I haven't walked that path so I don't know how they if they use that alley or right-of-way for Access or not but a lot all that'll be taken into consideration when the actual uh project kicks off and the design starts okay so it it's tough to say where does it go today and we would just assume down the middle today or down there it's pretty flat so as far as grades and things like that the construction looks pretty simple for me it looks like a what's the right place for the pedestrians to be yeah that's right I assumed a 12-foot path and like Jeff said we did I didn't we didn't really go down too far down the design path of figuring out all the details is just to get a high level cost estimate so just a length and a width and depth

19:19 are you done good not good and I didn't have time to look it up on Ireland but I don't think those homes have another access correct that is their only access yeah so then we'd have to considerate further driveways but it's actually their only yeah it's a right-of-way so it's just an unimproved right-of-way and that's why you probably see there's a guard rail on one side of it and it's not on the other because that is their access foreign yeah so like counselor Blackwell said we went and kind of looked at these to try to to try to see you know physically see them and try to visualize um the the Hamlin by goalie cap looks great that's a great idea and just looking at what that will do to connect not only for the school but for that entire um Eastern neighborhoods to be able to

20:06 put them out near Pioneer Parkway and like that whole area so I'm all on board on that one um then the second one the Olympic Street pedestrian path and looking at the costs on these other ones it's really hard for me to visualize how that would cost two hundred and ten thousand dollars and why we would spend the money on that little tiny area um I don't support that one I just think that the money could be used in a better way hopefully in one of these other areas that's on the list um I mean we we drove in there and it was it was also where neighbors are at and so there were houses there was literally a house right here with a driveway and people were driving in and out and then here's the path and we're gonna try to do so I'm not I'm not able to see how that works um in terms of especially with the cost that's involved in that

20:52 um and on the Pleasant Street um the seventh to 8th we were on 9th Street so we were sitting like right there I could see seventh and 8th and Ninth um or eighth to ninth and then ninth to tenth and I don't see how it's feasible to put a walkway in this Gravel drive that that is the only access for two houses in a safe manner or that would make sense unless you're gonna pave the whole thing and so that's where I'm trying to understand on costs and and it's it surprises me that you that this is being brought to us but that isn't those questions can't be answered because if you want me to to sign off on that I need to know what the plan is because there doesn't make sense to put in a 12-foot path and then have to tear it out at some point because we

21:37 pave it or it turns out that it's if you take 12 feet of that and then people are backing in and out of that because it is their only access it just doesn't I get wanting to connect them totally see that can't figure out how you're going to do that part between ninth and 10th um and so that one I have a little bit of an issue with the Douglas Garden sidewalk is a fantastic idea I think um Chancellor Blackwell and I both looked at that and said that's that is just um clearly we need that sidewalk and you can see where it would be and so that's a really um a really positive one um so that's the only things I have is that those two um I have my kind of questions okay thank you Corey I can't remember oh I was gonna just get

22:22 some more clarification which they answered about who was using that area and if it was somebody's was driving on it and all of that right I have similar concerns with the Pleasant Street I I agree that it should be something should be done comforted where I was saying and comfortable Blackwell something should be done because it made sense and then the Mike Folks went out there and everybody agrees that that connection should be safer et cetera but I I gotta say too it's like I don't like Band-Aid work I mean I just it's rough and it's it's always you have to put a Band-Aid on you you have to pull it off and put another one on down the road I just

23:08 in the 335 000 that doesn't connect it's not wouldn't come close to doing the job correctly and I'm just wondering if it's a little bit premature or bringing its job to us but I would be much more interested in seeing firm numbers with fixing it correctly however that is you know whether it's a street you know I mean even if it's even if it's not one of those it's not curved and sidewalk street but if it's just paved from edge to edge that seems like that would eliminate that problem but I know we don't typically pave edge to edge without the curbs and the sidewalks and fully improved so um I would entertain the slot if we're willing to put a 12-foot pass and let's make it a 22 foot pack

23:54 um but I don't know I I I I I have some some uh hesitation supporting this even though I support the idea but but the numbers and the final answer because they're not really getting answered on how you're going to do it not even I can't even come close to what you're what's being thought so I'm kind of on that same thing but but again we got the money's there for so long it's a worthwhile cause but I just don't know we may have to run Peter to pay Paul if it's done right and as far as which one you would take from thanks I just don't know which one you're taking but I don't think that's going to be enough to do the job correctly so he's got thank you well I

24:40 was going to say so with this type of funding I think where Drew's at and the project team is at is is if the council is in an agreement that those two projects are are not the right fit I think it's look at the let the other project list and find something so what happens is we put this big we have the big number up there for the the Hamlin and then you know we have the Douglas Gardens which is kind of a sidewalk infill where we have the same issue and it's like we have this amount of funding and we're trying to find projects that kind of balance it out and so I think what we would be then looking to the council to do is then well if those two aren't you know if the council doesn't really that's why we have that other alternative list if we could just fill something in like looking at the Darling Street or something like that that um that fills that and fills a simple

25:26 void so that you know like Darlene's a full Street curve Gutter and everything there's just doesn't have sidewalks in it Tech connects to Guy Lee I believe and the challenge of Darwin in that whole street is slowly imploding agreed so let's let's so we've worked good at what sounds like on on the Hamlin Middle School right and then I think in the Douglas Gardens okay so the question you know one addition that I had as I wanted to at least plug in there's probably a 30-foot piece of sidewalk the guidely needs that it because the turn in and the guidely basically you'll walk in with the cars at the same time and if everybody's supportive I'd like to put

26:11 that 30-foot piece of sidewalk on the list go ahead so we looked at that too and are you talking about as so as you drive up the street and you go to turn into their parking lot the two sides there so isn't that private property isn't that the school property the well it depends on where you look at it right so if you if you go to the South if you go to the South Side there's two ways to look at it you see that the run you see the run the uh the path that goes right across the kind of A Worn Path that goes right across the uh part which is in the Park which is on the lamolene's property and you go and that in the driveway is yeah I guess that will be in school

26:57 right so are you talking about here yeah that's one of the designs I I have heard is because that you think that it doesn't actually have Ada access that's right there but isn't that the school's property that's not that's not the city's property right there is it it looks like the the right-of-way is here and then you're talking about actually as it enters into the school so I'm just trying to understand if we're we're suggesting to fix something that's not public property well it is public property is honestly it is on the school district but it is a if we were trying to fix something that isn't in the transportation world right right like right wrong or indifferent right that is a gap that they have that is insignificant you know is not that much depicts

27:45 um I I think that's interesting because I'm like well who's whose property is it which I think would be helpful but I also that is another area where there is quite a bit of pedestrian Tropic um and bike traffic around those schools because you've got all those condos and all those things where people are walking their kids to school um so I I'm supportive of getting at least on this list so that we're keeping it in the Short Line good uh certainly not opposed to that um but typically school property we do view as private property and so typically it would be the school's responsibility too so fix that I did reach out to the safe routes uh school program coordinator and he said that they it's in their facility

28:30 plan they're trying to find money for it on a continual basis but finding money in their current operating budget is as we all know uh a constraint but there is safe routes of school money that they could apply for um and potentially get to to do that on their property but again I'm not opposed to it but I understand that you're not you're not you're sharing the technical stuff without having having a question you know without having an opinion about it but if if people yeah like when I looked at it I looked at it as I would be arguing about moving that darling project up with about a million and a half dollars and you know we we had we didn't spend all the money so go ahead well I just think that we have a list of city-owned

29:16 property that we should be looking at first I I'm not opposed to that either I think that when we looked at it it definitely we could see why it's necessary but I think that we if we're gonna not do these other two then we should be looking at the lists that we were given the city stuff yeah but the reality is we can add to the list right so if like if you're not support it you're not supported that's fine we can we can go around that we can find something else hit the kidless person and the twins well you know like

30:02 so I'm curious if we 've removed the 69th Street signalization with the flashing Beacon what do we know what the cost of that project would be or is I believe it's about 150 000 per rapid that whole intersection work as opposed to yeah Christy just just tuned in but um Chris yeah that's that's about that's accurate that's about what we're spending for the rrsb locations right now on Jasper Road for each location okay so you said about 150 so that'd be 5 45 6.5 6.95 so if we didn't do that and we took the Olympic Street and Pleasant Street projects out that leaves close to 700

30:49 000. and then if I look down below of those projects can those be prioritized based on need or is that just so gentle that there's no real prioritization on the alternative projects list those were just identified projects that fit the criteria in and around schools that we had been given Direction with on the last work session so I I think we ought to look look at the list rules real hard right now and amongst us to figure out that's what the next that's what the next step is we've got seven hundred thousand dollars a wiggle room here so the question is what else do you guys want to add to the list correct so it looks like we could take two of

31:35 them out based on that Michelle yeah I'm good I just want to back you up a little bit on that guy Lee spot having worked in that area it's so congested traffic people walking it just it's a nightmare for those kids and whether it's our property or city property I just think we need to consider you know what that would do for for safety for kids um they didn't think about with that Douglas Gardens ones there is actually a gap between the South 37 to the main entrance and my hope is that when we if that project is recommended that the school district could find some money to at that same time make that connection from the south 37 to the main entrance

32:21 it's about I would say 50 feet there may be more more than one way to go at this right so if people are like if we put if we move one of those uh those Darlene ones up there then we go back to the school then then we put money on the table and then we go back to the school district and say you need to finish the last like for us we will do these sections but you need to finish the last 50 feet I mean like that we would get to that we get to the same result and people working so what what my concern with Darlene and you

33:06 know Jeff you may have to help me with this is that road going to survive putting a sidewalk into it well yeah I think because there's curb and gutters so the sidewalk work will be outside of the asphalt we can separate into the roof I guess then the pedestrians that have a really nice path but the vehicles won't so I mean just in the way it works so um yeah I I know that road is in need of either some really intense preservation or a full depth Reclamation which is probably more likely so um it may not survive construction vehicles but a concrete truck going down there to put sidewalks but yeah right well no I just think there's a public perception too if we go throw in a sidewalk and then that road is trashed

33:51 how what are people going to say I mean regardless of the fact that we're trying to do something right I know if it was just me I'd be like I got a road right here and you put a sidewalk you know what I mean like I think that's something to consider did you have a different project well hey I'm going to pick E Street from 58 to 60th because it's in my ward I haven't looked at these so I mean I can't I can't speak to them because I didn't we didn't have enough time to go out and actually look at these I would be willing to do that and get back to you but I can't if you guys have seen these um I think that the G Street is a really good area I know exactly what council rodley was talking about so the 23rd Street G Street but Maple Elementary

34:37 we're just going to have to decide counselor I would say on the road condition and mayor the one thing is with a lot of these roads because they're older streets anyway and that's why there's a lot of sidewalk gaps most of them as far as the roadways themselves are not in great shape I mean the South 37th Street the best part of that might be where we put the sewer down there um and so you know I think kind of have to set the two things aside I I hear you and I get the same conversation and questions from citizens and and it's really a prioritization right we have this type of this bucket of funding and it's for a specific type of project and so we're doing the best thing we can do with that funds to find the best projects to fit and do the best good um on the flip side that's why we're you know working on getting you know

35:23 potentially another Bond and all of that because we have the same thing where we're not able to keep up on our street preservation yeah so I think and frankly like the darling thing all joking aside about that room right built the neighbor and those neighbors would be more than a static just to get something to get something that gets some attention to it um you know and we need to erode some other so we can start wrapping this up like I would say we dropped 69 we're dropping Olympic we're dropping pheasant and then we go ahead and add the darling the south side and then we make it sort of and we go back to the school district and say you're going to take you got you got to finish the 50 Feet to the school you know and go from there

36:08 yeah so pleasant would be out Olympic would be out Hamlet would be in Douglas Gardens would be and and then darling on the whatever side you know I have to be the sub and then you know we asked them to finish the 50 feet into the school would people be good with that I'm good with that I'm good with that but I do think we should okay lay down here like I do think we should keep that figure out something around that what's happening Kylie we should add it too well I think so I think that's some sort of project I think the thing I would be envisioning it because you brought the same thing to catalus County and Douglas garbage right is that it's running the same 50 feet like these are like thirty thousand dollar section of the sidewalk

36:54 right is that before we nap before you guys add it as a project that you guys go back to the school district and say guys when you need to come up with 30 grand right because we want to do this do this project and we want to it needs to go all the way into the school entrance is I think we can do that um because they'll have some cost savings we can do the engineering and then they'll just be paying materials and they'll get a better price with the quantity so and before we go to Joe so then if that happens right we're not adding those projects and the grand scheme of things we're just actually finishing things right okay thanks good so if we can and this is just my voice not the World Council but I would like to recommend that we don't just take them off the list and

37:40 throw it away definitely put them on an extra list absolutely and if you could add in 66 or keep that in one third I don't know what it hurts you so she's still listening but I I certainly don't want to wait another 24 months or 18 months to hear about 66 again because they're all very viable projects and throw in 66 somewhere and somewhere somewhere so it doesn't fall back off the back burner yeah a number of these projects are also identified in the safe routes to schools program and they actually keep an active list and rank them for me and most of these hit high priority on their lists as well okay no okay so I know why there's no risk

38:27 right like you and you guys will come back and talk to us when when there's an update uh yeah perfect we'll talk to the school about Douglas Gardens as well as Darlene and I still wouldn't I would like to get some more ideas or hear some more ideas on uh Gravel Road two houses path I like I I don't want that to die on the line either I'd love to hear more but I'd like to hear more tighter plans or at least some more clear Clarity yeah yeah separation from the driving service versus a pedestrian surface yeah I mean I think there's enough right away that they could have put we could have put a path in south of the existing Drive gravel driveway that's possible then you got property donors as far as making

39:13 assumptions as to is there right is there a right-of-way increase or is it decreased in the bill right away with and it would we would maintain it inside it was oh it could be a Bull Street okay you know it's just used as an adjective I'm assuming a lot of these are going to come back up as we start to talk about Street Pond projects and and different things some of this some of those streets are yeah yeah I was expecting that they were similar lists all right if you take a sorry if you take a look at the Pleasant Street aerial um you can see that people have made their path yeah down the center which may be why Stan laid that right down the center so that's something to look at for sure yeah perfect thank you guys thank you very much